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[sc:astop]Cammien Ray and Martin the Flash dive back into Star City’s events this week, as the heroes and villains blur the lines between who is who.The Queen family in particular goes through some interesting changes this week, in ways that can alter the whole landscape of the show. Join us as we chat about the highs and lows of an episode that certainly had its highs and lows.
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Part 1 of 2…
#KeepBlackSirenEvil!
Ok I’m confused about that “I’m gaining his trust” line at the end, are they now saying Emiko is working with Daunte because that’s weird. Oliver was in jail for all of Emiko’s plot so far so even if you believe she worked against him in a sense to lure him in there’s still no way Emiko or Daunte could have known Oliver would get out of jail so if this is a nod to them working together what is the point and why this way instead of putting Emiko into Slabside to bond with Oliver? This will be made even more of a dud if they reveal Daunte killed her mother because while that’s a classic drama move it’s fair to ask why then couldn’t Emiko and Oliver just work together to take Daunte down when that is learned, why does she have to be connected to him? I feel this is a problem shows have at times when they try to connect everything in a season, if you plan it right yes it can be fun but more times than not you end up with plots no longer making sense or not being as good as when they start or you mess up continuity and create more messes than when you started; again if they are meant to be working together what is the point of how Emiko and Daunte did this? Why does Daunte even care about Oliver to start with? Not everything has to be connected with a group – it’s okay to have mini mission arcs or for some things to pay off in the next season because the plot works better as a longer story. We’ll see what happens but the more that twist is broken down the more I feels it’s not going in an organic direction.
Villains aren’t “Arrow”‘s strong point.
I know it is a losing battle but I’m going to continue to hold out hope that Black Siren is playing a long con with this whole not wanting to quit her job thing as it does have benefits for a villain given she can help free people to build her own army. If this is not a long con then I feel this may be my last season with the show as it would be SUCH a missed opportunity to have a quality anti hero at the least on the series; I will continue to say THERE IS NO NEED TO RUSH TO REDEEM Black Siren! If they HAVE to have her as less evil then again just make her an anti hero because those are so rare on superhero shows much less ones done well; good guys are a dime a dozen as they say on shows as are bad guys it’s true but being real “Arrow” does pale in comparison to the other shows when it comes to memorable bad guy counts which would be a reason again to keep Black Siren evil but if they want to go down this path why not do something new and have her be an anti hero to nod to those comic characters instead of just repeating Laurel’s plot that wasn’t finish because they backgrounded her last time? I just REALLY worry for Black Siren long term with this redemption stuff!
That said there were some cute moments with Felicity and Black Siren in this episode, still I would trade them for at least confirmation of Black Siren being an anti hero because just no do her as a good guy. I very much worry that if they go full good guy with her we’ll see her fade into the background even with a smaller cast or she’ll just be there to pop in and out and show she’s still around even though she’s not there as much as a Renee or Dinah. I just fear they’re going to repeat Laurel with Black Siren and we’ll lose Katie again even if not physically because physically you can be there but also still not really feel like you’re on the show; Black Siren is so much fun for her sass and unpredictability again it would just be SUCH a shame to lose that! I apologize to Beth for essentially not trusting her with this but I just don’t want to see the potential wasted; we’ve got good guys – let Siren be an anti hero again to showcase those characters! Long run the writing team might have a plan that won’t end up with Siren repeating Laurel’s exit or that won’t leave her a shell of herself but I’m just not confident in that right now, I’m having so many season 4 flashbacks right now and that’s not good when it comes to this topic because Laurel’s exit was just SO poorly handled and her use on the team was glorified filler to show she was still there because honestly Laurel should have just retired and left town for as much as she had left connecting her to the team at that point. I genuinely felt like Laurel could have walked away from the team and felt mainly happiness over that decision rather than any guilt in season 4. I just really don’t get this desire to make her good; Lyla is shady as everything but she still works with the team so why does Siren have to change? Dinah straight up murdered a guy during her recruitment phrase and she’s still on the team questioning them at times so why does Siren have to change? If you JUST ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE a redeemed Siren to keep her in play long term show okay writers but the path of redemption should at least seem organic and jumping to the end where she’s all buddy buddy with most is not organic, start with an anti hero for like 2 and a half years at least and then ease into the good Siren (please never lose the sass though) because right now “good Siren” feels forced as she just tried to kill them all last year, she straight up murdered Vince which you can’t fault Dinah for being mad about, and oh yeah she doesn’t really know them! Just because Quentin forced Laurel’s life onto her does not make Siren Laurel so it’s incredibly disrespectful to act as if you can basically swap the two around; have her interact with more than just Felicity even if it’s a horrible interaction in terms of all the pair does is yell and disagree and have people ask her about herself so it feels real because Black Siren could be a great long term addition to the show if they do her right and don’t just jump to the “we’re all friends now” ending which sadly puts her quicker into harm’s way really because between a character like Felicity or Oliver or her it’s going to be her who goes out first and again then you just repeat Laurel being used because they didn’t want to take time to have things feel more organic and that’s just a bummer.
I don’t hate the Ghost Initiative, I just hate Diaz. They’re totally the Suicide Squad so it is weird to hear them say Ghost Initiative but outside of Diaz I don’t mind them. I disagree Flash, I thought their fight scene was one of the better ones “Arrow” has ever had; fight scenes also until recently haven’t been their strong suit.
“I guess family photos don’t exist.” – ha fair Sara(h)!
“Highlander”, that’s it; thanks Flash, I thought Daunte looked familiar!
Shout out to Lyla for mentioning baby Sara! Can we have her back please? Stop screwing things up Barry; it’s changes like this why I’m not thrilled at a merger with him when it comes to National City, if we could pick and chose what he changes ok but since we can’t I would like to install a time shift protective bubble around the city which we can have Kara go back in time and lower if we want to be a part of his stuff but if not we kept separate! Does Connor being John’s step son now or even still baby JJ in some way mean we get her back because I’m for that. It seems like these future scenes are literally changing in front of our eyes which would be cool but can be confusing also. I’m still with Cammie in this is a future not the future and the only reason we’re still seeing this version is because it teases Oliver’s future which everyone is debating with the coming crossover, plus they’re committed at this point with only a few episodes left but I by no means think it will be the future of the city/characters we’re seeing.
All I can hear in that Siren-Felicity scene is “Now kiss!”. Ha. Seriously Siren is like one step away from full on hitting on Felicity; if Felicity wasn’t married and Siren hadn’t tried to kill her just last year I could ship them as a possible pair. I’m telling you Black Siren has chemistry with all the ladies! 🙂
Oh Cammie……sadly I so agree, they are killing Siren and for what? Ok you want to push some redemption for her no one was asking for (we just wanted more screen time for her) but that doesn’t mean you have to jump to hero – again there’s such a thing as anti heroes/anti villains and she could have been one of those for the season before going full redeemed if that’s really what you want next season. Siren’s inclusion just feels very forced at this point and I do like it. Again I love her getting more screen time but I don’t like seeing her have to suffer to get it. 🙁
To me it’s also frustrating that the crew seems to act as if Laurel and Siren are interchangeable and they’re not, again they will never be each other even though they share a name and DNA because they don’t have the same life experiences so it’s insulting with the redemption to act as if Siren can just jump in with the group now as if she wasn’t trying to kill them a year ago because she looks like Laurel and had Laurel’s identity pushed on her. Just think about it personally for yourself, how would you like if people pushed another’s identity on you – would you want to be their friend? Even if you had to use the identity for a cover those people still know you aren’t X but they’re going to act like you are – that’s just insulting and frustrating. There’s really been no good beyond maybe more screen time that has come from this plot. Personally I wanted to scream when the door said “Laurel Lance is entering the residence” because yeah that’s Siren’s name but she’s not Laurel-1 and thus I refuse to disrespect the characters by saying Laurel. Laurel-1 is Laurel, Black Siren is Laurel-2 or Black Siren or Siren because they aren’t the same people! It’s just such a shame to think about what could have been with her and how they’re basically as Cammie said setting her up for another death either literally or metaphorically and for what I will continue to ask. What is so wrong with anti hero/villaining her? Ugh it’s like “Supergirl” refusing to make James just the head of CatCo like he could be good at; why, why do you not embrace organic yet still dramatic paths writers?! To be fair “Supergirl” is possibly starting to get it with James as he’s been at the office the last few weeks but “Arrow” just seems to be missing the mark completely with Siren and I don’t get why. Why the rush to absolute good guy hero? I’m just a sad panda over this and I will go down with this ship.
Part 2 of 2…
LOL Cammie, you saying Emiko has a right not to trust Oliver makes me think of the after show video this week and you saying how real talk Laurel in S1 had every right to off Oliver in a back alley because it’s so true – he knowingly cheated on her with not just her sister but her friend so any time that’s just frowned upon or looked over it feels inorganic. I love Emiko pushing Oliver away because possible villain twist aside just because they share blood it doesn’t make them family so him trying to be all brother-y to her and her just saying no made me smile in those moments.
Can we just take a moment to appreciate how it took Dinah untying Zoe for her to get free of the chair? Poor adult Zoe no one wants to help her. Ha. I’m still team Zoe-Maya kiss because I know Zoe is older but as long as Maya is over 18 we’re good. If not her again can we please have bisexual Black Siren?! Heck even with them can we have bisexual Black Siren?! I just want more queer content on the show and since we don’t have young William for that content currently someone needs to step up, I feel Siren is good because she’s got some great chemistry with the ladies and we may actually see her where as the flashbacks don’t lend themselves to romance right now and aren’t screen time as heavy as her parts might be. 🙂
Props to DJAirrick on YouTube for pointing out this obvious issue with the flashforwards, this may have been mentioned on the podcast before but I can’t remember who said it if it has my apologies but how does Dinah not know about Mia? I’m pretty sure she’s going to attend her baby shower at some point if they tell the team which you think they would because you can only hide a pregnancy for so long. Roy you can get if you say Thea never told him about her because they broke up but if Dinah sticks around even 3 months, same for Renee, shouldn’t Dinah and Zoe know about Mia even if they may not know what she looks like when she’s older because they all split for some reason? Also shout out to Cammie for her after show comment of there being an episode where villains attack the baby shower because it is a classic adventure; *sigh* I’m sure Siren will protect Felicity which yay protect Felicity but really can we just not with hero Siren – anti hero at most!
I can give you the grandparents interfering to a point Flash because even if they block calls and messages at the start they can’t block Felicity from showing up, she’s a genius if she wants to see William she will so I think there’s still 10% of that plot that doesn’t make sense to the people involved.
Re: Siren being redeemed, “We just have to accept it.” – NEVER Flash!
Not going to lie, I kind of see Black Star as more a Felicity-Siren mix than Olicity; yes biologically Oliver is Mia’s parent but I think (my) Siren could have had an influence on her also sort of like how Zoe is Dinah Jr. even though they aren’t related. 🙂
OH Stormy I would LOVE for it to be Siren because again embrace the anti hero in her show; as she said Siren knew that back story and if Diaz was in police custody at that point she could have easily done it. I’m for this but sadly I can’t hold my breath for it because of how much they’ve screwed her with redemption points so far. Stormy have you met the Danvers sisters? They’re pretty awesome! 🙂 That’s totally fair about how Oliver deserves to grow old with his wife and kids and how if he goes out sacrificing himself for some fans that’s going to feel irritating more than enjoying because it’s like Laurel in a sense – they could have just let her retire, they didn’t have to kill her off and doing so especially in that moment was annoying. It definitely feels like Oliver will die in the crossover which makes sense he’d sacrifice for his friends, it’s still SUPER frustrating he didn’t consult Felicity first, but still I can understand how that would leave some fans less satisfied than seeing him actually happy for more than an episode at a time.
Looks like you owe Cammie or Dazzler a house, car, and bank account Flash because much like this episode she didn’t have her normal intro so does that mean this is after the episode? 🙂
I don’t care who burned Diaz, although Siren doing it because she’s bad would be awesome, I just hope it took him out even though like Flash I’m not holding my breath over it because as we’ve all asked can we be done with him already?
“Diggle finally showed up for season seven!” – lol Amanda!