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[sc:astop]Martin “The Flash” and Cammien Ray dive in on an episode that had enough plot for two or three episodes – this week was a wild ride! While the villains took a backseat, the fighting continued, as the heroes fought each other enough to make up for it, and we’ve got some thoughts and theories on where they are heading.ย Meanwhile, Oliver undergoes a torturous psych evaluation in Level Two of the prison, and as his grasp on reality weakens, new information is revealed about what happened before he was stranded on the island many years before – and listeners had quite a lot to say about this turn of events. Join the discussion!
This season Arrow will be airing on Mondays at 8pm ET. Our podcast episodes will be posted the following Wednesday, so we can accept email/voice feedback throughย Tuesday afternoon – and maybe an early Tuesday evening submission might make it in if you’re quick. ๐
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Part 1 of 3…
Okay I’m just going to start with the obvious: I’m 50/50 on this episode because on the one hand Dinah was awesome this week but on the other F*** this bull crap redemption arc with Black Siren!!! >:(
Clearly the writers do not understand how frustrating it is to watch Katie Cassidy portray Black Siren so masterfully and then have that performance essentially invalidated, at the very least neutered, in the name of what? What I ask you? So Katie can be on the show? Guess what she was on the show last season and she wasn’t a good guy so don’t tell me she has to be a good guy to be on this show! Is it that they just don’t care? What is the endgame with this? Someone please explain it to me because all this makes me want to do watching is stop watching and watch the Dinah stuff online! ๐
Again boiling her season plot down to “because Quentin” feels like it ignores the fact he stalked her and forced his dead daughter’s image onto which is not very noble I have to say. Had Quentin wanted to help Black Siren because he felt she really wanted to be good but she didn’t know how, think anti hero leaning more good than bad, it would have been one think…heck had he harassed her because he didn’t want her tainting Laurel’s image it would have been one thing but what happened last season to me felt like they were trying to turn Black Siren into Black Canary and I don’t get why and the fact they’re doubling down on that this season when they could have done more of a middle ground to see what fans wanted first is just frustrating. This Quentin is not her Quentin and this Laurel is not his Laurel so why should she especially give a crap about what he wants from her?!
They fact they’re putting so much emphasis on Quentin is especially annoying to me because again I feel it invalidates single mothers out there who raise good kids; not having her father in her life may have effected Siren but it’s not the only thing that sent her down this path. You know who else didn’t have a dad really growing up? Winslow Schott on “Supergirl” – he didn’t turn out evil because of it…actually he did have a dad for a bit but then he went mad and Winn had turn him in to the cops and still he’s not evil even though he was exposed to Toy Man’s descent into revenge! She said she lost her Oliver so why didn’t she take what this Oliver said as gospel also? No she tried to kill him instead so why does she care what one says but not the other? It doesn’t make sense; they have plenty of ways to mention Quentin Lance on this show without piling it all on Black Siren basically. When you add Quentin’s shady actions as the motive for this redemption it just makes it all the more worse to me.
And ok say they do redeem her, then what – she becomes a background character again basically like she was in season four only popping up really when they wanted to remind fans they knew she was still around?
Are they going to write out Dinah to fit her in because what good is two sonic screamers on a team? Would they not essentially cancel each other out? At the least they would feel interchangeable on missions and how is that fair when other characters aren’t presented that way?
Is Black Siren going to become a full on lawyer locking up the bad guys Oliver and company take down? Are we really going to see Law & Order: Arrow because if not then what’s the point of her as a lawyer, just to say she has a day job? I wish I had more faith in the writers but they’re not making it easy right now when it comes to this character because you’d think they’d recognize the potential of a good villain like Black Siren and how fun it would be if she was playing the team but they seem to be focused on redeeming her instead which makes me worry that if we did see court room scenes they wouldn’t last long or if we did Laurel 2 would be shown to be out of her depth and then she gets fired and again then what?
I just don’t get where a redemption arc leads to good for her right now with everything else going on and even if they had the space because other characters left if you still have Dinah on the squad how does it work with duplicate powered people? At a point would the Canary Cry be lessened for fans if it’s used twice as fast? Do they have new plots planned for a redeemed Laurel and I just can’t see it through my rage of what feels like missed opportunity or will they just end up repeating plots from previous seasons with her and again we end back up with a background Laurel who it feels like she could walk away from the group and actually be the better for it?
Cammie hit it on the head perfectly when you discussed this last time – it is the potential missed plots with this story that frustrate me so much! Again “Arrow” isn’t known for having the strongest memorable villain roster, yes they have big names but they also repeat a lot because their list of good villains is in part so short, and now they have a potential addition and they’re just seemingly throwing it away for what?! Again writers you can always redeem Black Siren later you can’t unredeem her once you go down that path though…well technically you can but it won’t have the same emotional weight as if you had her play the team now, be the lead bad guy for a full season, go away (because Katie can be on the show without being in every episode) and then come back and maybe work towards a redemption for an actually believable reason not because someone forced it on her like we’re seeing now; again Black Siren owes these people nothing so why should she care all of a sudden what happens to them?
If she made begrudging friends with Dinah or Felicity during her con this season and they visited her in jail or came to her for help with another bad guy so we see her as an anti hero after jail then you tease a redemption that way it might work but at this point a redemption arc just doesn’t because this redemption arc is again forced and tainted and who wants the payoff to that when you can have organic payoff to a more organic redemption tease? Again why the rush writers?!
I wish I had the same amount of hope I did last week that they’re playing with the long con with Black Siren and in the end she was going to turn on them all because she enjoys being the bad guy still but after that scene with Felicity and yet another week of invoking Quentin’s actions my hopes have fallen and I feel they are committed to the redemption consequences be darn. ๐
And you can’t tell me this is a case of where it’s too late to not go down this path because the season has been written, we’ve all see the crossover photos so we know episodes are still being filmed so it’s not too late writers – you can not redeem Black Siren; unless they’ve just written the redemption mid season so it will feel forced no matter what they do then there’s still time to go long con instead and save the redemption for after you’ve exhausted the bad guy plots. Doing the bad guy plots then doing the redemption plot gives you so many more stories than just going redemption right now and who doesn’t like options? I don’t know maybe I’m just asking for too much with all of this but I just don’t get how they can do this plot so poorly when everything else this season is being handled so well! Maybe they don’t see it as poorly done though, I guess if I bought Quentin being that important to her it would feel organic but the problem is I don’t and never will because it didn’t make sense last season so it’s not going to make sense suddenly this season for me; I just feel there’s no rush to redeem her because at this stage redemption hurts things more than it would expand them.
*Sigh* I’m just so very frustrated with this topic. ๐
Part 2 of 3…
On to other things from this week though…
I’m jealous of you every time Flash that Juliana opening plays. Ha.
I wanted to love this episode…then they had the bull crap redemption teases so it took it down to just good to me.
I’m personally not a fan of the N52 because they killed one of my favorite books, “Birds Of Prey”.
Real talk: I’m still surprised Renee has made it to “Ok” in your book Cammie; again I think that says wonders for his writing this season because you had basically written him off last seasons. ๐
I can actually pick a favorite moment from this week because the moment was just SO good; my favorite moment is Dinah arresting Renee! I honestly didn’t know if they’d go there but they did and it was glorious for the organic drama alone! ๐ The performances of Juliana and Ricky were also good and the lighting of the scene from the fire and nightscape just added to the perfection of that scene, I loved it! Dinah as a whole was my favorite part of this episode; I hope you don’t mind sharing her this week Flash. ๐
I actually didn’t like the use of Quentin by Diggle to Dinah…look I’ll just say it I’m tired of him being the reason for every character! I get remembering him and Diggle saying he use to not trust people too and that can open Dinah’s eyes to the new GA fine but I don’t want him being the reason Dinah works with new Arrow. You can reference Quentin without him being everything for everyone so honestly I’d be fine with him not being talked about as a beacon for character motivation the rest of the season.
Can you handle killing Dragon Black Siren?! I really hope she doesn’t wuss out when it comes to this but again my confidence has dropped when it comes to them not redeeming her.
I would definitely not underestimate Felicity if I was someone!
I really enjoyed the psychological examination stuff with Oliver this week because it presented some good discussion points on how his actions are viewed – he sees himself as the hero but really did he take things too far? I feel not all those test were legal, I’d hope not all are, but I’m up for more scenes which create discussion on Oliver’s approach to everything. Also again some nice mood lighting in those scenes too, it helped with the atmosphere of the moment.
I’m with Flash, Barry likes to screw with things on his show so that could effect the flash forwards we’re seeing and even if he doesn’t screw things up for us here this season then we could see shifts to the events changing because as Flash said someone decides different in the past so these future events never happen; they’re an interesting storyline so far but they could end up as filler before it’s all said and done. I’d actually expect them to change either this season or they do things next season that leads to changes to what we see because no way they’re killing Felicity and while “Arrow” is the dark show I doubt they’ll end it with Oliver dead. We may not even have it confirmed things changed but I can’t see this future being the set outcome fans would pick or the writers because if they were going to write a season where big names die Felicity would have gone out in S4 sadly and Oliver would have been dead last year.
One thing I certainly want to keep though is Zoe as the next Canary because of Dinah – I love it so much! ๐ Zoe’s comment about Renee did make me pause though, is it possible Renee is part of the Glades group now and is kind of opposing the city; does he just think he’s too good for the city anymore because he’s a hero to the Glades currently so he doesn’t have a desire to run off? So many questions about her saying he wouldn’t be caught dead in Star City. In regards to Felicity being dead currently, again a body on screen or it didn’t happen! She is somewhere safe looking fabulous! Also again I wonder if this ties into the Legends episode somehow of Star City where Oliver has one arm, if so if they change something during the season will it change the flash forwards we’re seeing? Shifting flash forwards would be cool I have to say to show the power of choice – we start all dark and gritty but end up with a hopeful scene of William coming home to see his perfectly fine parents and friends (and he’s still not dating Zoe, but she is still the next Canary, because they already confirmed him with guys so we can stop there on his relationships; save bisexual for Zoe); I get that might be frustrating for some to not have payoff to a certain event in the flash forwards, not that they care about frustrating people – see crap redemption arc (always bitter over that), but it would be something unique as I don’t know if even “Flash” has done something that instant visually where you see the future change within the same season to such a large degree.
“We’re going to have to swallow hard and accept it.” – NEVER!!! Burn the “redeemed Black Siren” plot down before it burns the show down!!! >:( It is not too late writers, you don’t have to kill another character Katie plays; you can always redeem Black Siren later you can have good dramatic plotting if you redeem her now and then yo-yo her later! Again I don’t think I can personally take that redemption plot, I couldn’t even enjoy a rage watch if that happened because I would just be so disappointed. Let’s just keep reminding the writers how poor a choice that would be okay guys? Let’s put the positive message of keeping her negative into the show universe. ๐
NO Flash you stop it right now! Black Siren is bad because she wants to be bad! I’m not buying she was happy until Quentin 2 died because they could have revealed that last season when he was stalked the crap out of her and trying to force Laurel’s life onto her but they didn’t so this feels like just bull crap trying to push the redemption and I DO NOT WANT THAT!!! Again I will say “Arrow” is crap when it comes to quality villains next to the other series so they need her as a bad guy WAY more than they need her redeemed! If they want to say her Oliver dying added to her bad guy life then okay but to say she only went bad because of him and certainly Quentin excuse me while I throw up all over this plot. Again I get they want to keep Quentin in the memories but there’s better ways to do it; this kind of stuff makes me hate Quentin so he’d be my “character you use to like but now don’t” Cammie. I get giving her some sympathetic seeming backstory helps them with their redemption push but again NO ONE WANTS IT! This really feels like they’re jot learning when it comes to Laurel, it’s like in S4 when people said “Don’t kill a main character” and they killed off Laurel and now people are saying “Don’t redeem Laurel” yet they’re working towards it which just feels like a set up to kill her in another way (she’s background basically or a forced in character just to show she’s there). I just do not like this redemption plot, no good can come of it this season (or the next after that) for sure if you ask me!
“Whether we like it or not they wrote it in there, it doesn’t matter” – does losing viewers matter Flash? I feel that may happen with at least one. And again even if some don’t stop watching fully are they going to care about Black Siren when she’s good? We know hardcore Laurel fans see it as disrespecting her to say she’s basically replaceable (when Dinah came in) and now interchangeable (making Black Siren her continuation) so they’re not going to get excited by it and average fans may see her much like they’ve seen her beyond S1 just there so she’s not going to be talked about like they may hope and then again she’s essentially a background character and we’re back to S4 so what good did that do? I know you’re trying man but it’s not working with me sorry. NO GOOD COMES FROM REDEEMING BLACK SIREN RIGHT NOW!
The writers sadly aren’t that smart if they can’t see redemption can wait in this case; I’ll give them credit where it’s due everything else this season has been good but if they redeem Black Siren this season it will be their massive fail and take a great season down to a low good if just ok – at least for me. Seriously tell me one reason the redemption arc HAS to happen this season because I don’t get it. You’re basically sending Katie back to where she was or you’re writing out Juliana because how do you maximize two people with the same ability who are in the same career proximity? Is Dinah going to be Quentin only now while Siren takes her spot on the team? What is the so important story that needs to be told with Siren that redemption has to be now? I seriously do not get it. I don’t understand how they can do so well with every other plot but fail hard on one; sadly this is not my first experience with this situation on a CW superhero show (looking at you “Supergirl” S2 and the whole Mon/Kara choice) so maybe it’s just seeing it happen again that it’s making me even more angry. It’s weird because as you both said earlier I wasn’t exactly excited with Laurel in most of what I saw but she had some great stuff with Nyssa and some good moments and S4 and then Katie came in killing this Black Siren part so I think it would just be such a shame to see yet another plot with her get wasted which is what redemption right now would feel like – a waste. I’m just so scared she’s going to become filler like Laurel was in a lot of the seasons or someone else is going to get pushed aside to make space for her screen time and it won’t be as interesting as the other plot so fans may feel jilted there if they like the other plot better…I’m just really not seeing the positives to a redemption for Black Siren this or next season.
The idea of losing a, at the least, good villain like Black Siren just makes me shake with anger. What is with the rush writers especially when you have the chance to change it and not do it right now?! I would get it to a point if they were locked into the season because they had filmed so much by the time we’ve seen the first episode but they’re filming the midway point (crossover is E9 to them this season) so even if they’re just pasted it they’re not so far they can’t turn back yet; I just don’t get it.
Is this a long game and Siren is going to fake good to get close to the team to screw then over in the end because okay, I’ll take that; I still question how smart that is compared to how organic other plots are but it means evil Siren still so yay! Or is she really going good permanently because NNNOOO to that! I know you’re probably tired of hearing this each week but this is just one of those times I can’t let the topic go.
Part 3 of 3…
Bebo was on “Supergirl” too this week which is on a different Earth so as Flash said can we not with that character! Yes physically he’s cute but it’s not their character. Having Bebo on “Supergirl” especially would be like if a kid ran into frame wearing one of Kara’s logos showed up on “Arrow” or “Flash”, actually that would make more sense as at least Kara has traveled Earths before where as she knows nothing of Bebo.
If new Arrow is a dude I take back what I said about wanting Green Arrow/(Dinah) Black Canary in this and all future seasons!
Look I’m going to be honest, I didn’t even notice the scar on Dinah’s throat because as everyone has said – did you see her?! Flash knows you can just get lost in those steely colored eyes and voice. ๐
I’m with Flash, I like Dinah trying to make the force respectful again.
I got to disagree with Geoff, why would they waste time showing us an alternate Earth right now? A timeline effected because of Nora I get as Barry has affected Oliver before, see changing Sara into John Jr, but a different Earth right now no. If it was closer to the crossover maybe but I don’t get alternate Earth currently for the flash forwards.
The crossover may be limited in shows Cammie but certainly not guest characters, they are announcing people left and right like they’re casting for a brand new show. It makes me wonder how much time Batwoman is really going to get now with so many names being added to the roster for the special.
I’m highly shocked Dinah didn’t look under the mask but I guess that’s her way of showing she trust this new Arrow some. I totally would have at least put my hand on the mask because you want to know who you’re risking some things for at times. Dinah is better than me I guess. ๐
I think Dinah chipped the Canary necklace she gave Zoe in order to keep track of her.
Kev makes a good point – new Arrow may be a new person all together so they don’t want to show their face to strangers. The team does wear masks to protect their identities so it’s possible everyone is currently a stranger to each other in terms of the team and new Arrow. Evelyne showed us this in S5, just because you have a similar suit to the heroes doesn’t mean you know them outside of the suit you just know their idea of saving the city.
“That does sound like classic last season Renee so” – LOL Cammie!
I think Salty about Bebo Flash is saltier than Salty about Renee Cammie, this is interesting. ๐ I don’t like Bebo either but now I kind of want him in another episode just to hear Flash yell no. Ha.
“No other DC show can touch it!” – woah, calm down Flash. #Supergirl If they didn’t try to redeem Black Siren I would probably put them ahead slightly of this current season of “Supergirl” but because they are doing that bull redemption it seems “Supergirl” is my lead without question; we have some issues it’s true but we don’t have any potentially season quality breaking plots this year unlike “Arrow”. At the least I feel it’s a toss up for the number one spot. ๐
Ok. How do I start ? I have no interest in Dinah as a character . She is taking too much valuable screentime from characters I do care about . Let Siren be an antihero. Stop trying to make her LL 2.0 . Tired of the prison storyline. Get him out already . Excited about Felicity’s storyline but they better not kill her in the future because that ruins the show for me . What would be the point ? Need to see Oliver. Felicity and Diggle on screen . That is the show.
“Let Siren be an antihero. Stop trying to make her LL 2.0.” – I can agree with this Sandra.
Ideally I’d like to see Siren stay a bad guy for this and next season as I feel she has steps to go before even an antihero plot feels organic but between a full redemption and antiheroism I’d totally take antiheroism because redemption just makes NO sense for her at this point. Again she owes these people nothing and she is not this idea they keep pushing on her so why would she want to change potentially when they’re not even seeing her for her you know. It’s incredibly insulting to both Laurel Lance and Black Siren that they’re being treated with this redemption plot as basically interchangeable!
If she goes antihero I’d like them to keep her like Mick from “Legends Of Tomorrow” in which she’s a good guy to the team but she still will kill people they might not because she sees them as a threat and she steals stuff because she’s not that good of a guy; antihero who leans more bad is my ideal position for her if they go there because I just can’t buy antihero who leans more good from her – she’s not Lyla. ๐
Out of curiosity, why don’t you like Dinah?