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Crossovers have to be one of the greatest aspects to television. What better way to make a story arc exciting than to show just how big the universe our characters live in is? We really hope you had a chance to catch up on enough of The Flash in order to get a full dose of this crossover awesomeness, but in case you didn’t, we decided to team up with Tony and Joe from Central City Underground, our resident Flash podcast, to chat about this season’s two-night event! In this episode we discuss The Flash, Season 2 Episode 8 “Legends of Today”, and Arrow, Season 4 Episode 8 “Legends of Yesterday”. These episodes originally aired on December 1 and 2, respectively.
Hawkgirl & Hawkman
Believe it or not, these are two DC characters that I actually knew quite a bit about coming into this arc. Not a lot in comparison to what’s known by a person who grew up reading DC comics, but a lot in comparison to Green Arrow or The Flash. What drew me to their story was the concept of two people being bound by ancient magic, in which they cycled through reincarnations, finding and losing one another over and over.
I wasn’t overly impressed with the actor who played Carter Hall/Hawkman. He sounded like he was on autopilot. Having previously experienced Michael Shanks as Carter Hall in Smallville, my expectations were pretty high. Chemistry between the two actors, Hawkman and Hawkgirl, was lacking as well. Chemistry comes in many forms. Despite Jay Garrick’s rather inefficient utilization on The Flash, he and Harrison Wells have a ripe chemistry of mutual disdain. And it works! I can feel it. But I feel nothing between these two kids. Hopefully that will improve as their dynamic is explored.
Secret Keeping
I’m writing this blog post before we’ve recorded the podcast, so I fully intend to bring this up. But I can’t not write about it here because it was such a huge issue for me. I was so disappointed with the direction both Samantha and Felicity took regarding Oliver’s discovery of fatherhood. I don’t think it’s out of character, I’m just saddened that the two female characters who had the most meaningful discussions with Oliver this week were totally cast into stereotypical, drama-filled roles.
I’ll start with Samantha. For a girl who was knocked up in high school, presumably, she’s extremely well off. She seems to have a system down with her son, she can afford a great house, a fairly new car, and to enroll the kid in whatever sport he was in. All this without cashing Moira’s check. She’s not struggling for money, she hasn’t been oppressed by the system. And yet, when Oliver confronts her, heart in hand, she adamantly refuses to provide him with a path that will lead him into a mature and healthy relationship with his son.
I’m not saying she should go right upstairs and introduce Oliver to William as his father. I’m saying that she’s asking Oliver to be immature about the relationships he has with everyone else by forcing him to keep a secret, so that the “chaos” of his life (in quotes because it’s Samantha’s perceived chaos, not literally Oliver being the Green Arrow) will not interfere with William’s well-adjusted life. She puts him into a no-win situation. If she and her son are so well adjusted, she should have found a way to make that work.
I would make a Gilmore Girls reference here, but I think this may be the wrong audience for that.
Next… Felicity. Oh, Felicity, darling. Look, I get, I totally get, that she and Oliver have been through the ringer when it comes to him keeping secrets from her and the team. I am not underestimating the toll it took on her when Oliver went “undercover” in the League of Assassins, nor am I trying to diminish the effect lying has on a committed relationship.
However, Felicity was a paranoid wreck in this episode. He respectfully asked her to give him time to sort things out, and when he didn’t come clean 20 minutes later, he is accused of keeping secrets and lying. Then, she pounces on the first opportunity to learn about what Oliver’s being so secretive about and actually learns the truth before he can tell her about it. So, when she confronts him and gives him the opportunity to come clean, she’s not actually giving him an opportunity, but guiding him into a trap that will result in an ultimatum.
It’s disappointing because coming just weeks after Felicity’s breakdown that she’s never been the girl to lose herself in a guy, she is pulling another play from the same handbook.
Look, I’m not married. I’m not living with someone. I know that rules are different in a committed relationship, but there has to be some level of grace for allowing a person time to deal with something in the way they deal with it. Everyone processes information differently. I’d have reacted in the same way in Oliver’s shoes. Give me a moment to process before attacking me!
If Felicity is going to be this frantic and paranoid girl every time something big happens in their lives, I don’t want the two of them together! It’s quite immature.
Ok, end diatribe. I can’t tell yet whether this is good storytelling or cliched storytelling. I think the next episode will tell me more. I’m still more annoyed by Samantha than Felicity. Because Samantha had to know this was a possibility.
I’m talking about these people like they’re real. So maybe the problem is Samantha’s character wasn’t fleshed out enough before throwing her into the mix!
Who’s In The Grave?
Felicity or William? Those are my two guesses right now. Felicity because of temporal backlash. William because he will soon be sucked into Oliver’s orbit. What’s your theory? Leave a comment!
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Next Week
The winter finale is upon us! Can you even believe it? Season 4 Episode 9 “Dark Waters” is next.
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Unlike Oliver, I’d like to go into this comment section with full honesty – this is my first time ever seeing a full episode of “Arrow”. I only watched this crossover because I’m excited for “Legends Of Tomorrow” because I like Hawkgirl; admittedly I’m more Shayera Hol specifically from “Justice League Unlimited” than I am Kendra Saunders, but she still seemed to be doing a good job in promos so I’m checking it out. I’m posting to this specific “Arrow” podcast episode because while I watched both parts, Kendra did have more to do in this episode.
I understand my one-shot opinions won’t mean much because I don’t have the full series knowledge, but hopefully you’ll enjoy reading them all the same.
Speaking of Kendra as Hawkgirl, I understand there’s a small good amount of reasons to keep the wings CGI – arguably cheaper than practical wings, actress comfort, and Kendra didn’t have real wings, but I was really hoping we’d see her with wings full time like Shayera because I wanted to see how Kendra dealt with them in spaces. The CGI wings looked good though.
I did want to punch Carter Hol a lot in this crossover, but that’s not really anything new for me regarding that character, I wanted to punch him in “Justice League: Unlimited” too; I understand he loves Shayera and sometimes she loves him too, but he feels very obsessive at times and acts like he knows best I don’t like that. I thought the actor did well though.
I have to say I’m Team Felicity regarding the whole lying situation. I don’t think she was trapping Oliver in the first situation because really the only difference between the first time line and the second is in the first Felicity knew what he was upset about and if he was lying where as in the second timeline she didn’t; Oliver still had a chance to be honest with her but chose not to, it was a fair situation I felt. I understand it was a big reveal for him, but as Felicity pointed out he had time to go to Barry and wait for the results and ask Barry to lie for him essentially and then go talk to Samantha the first time before he came to her so it’s not like they found out together and she instantly got mad at him – while it’s not a lot of time he still had time to process enough he should have realized lying to her was not a good thing; lying in the second timeline was especially bad because Barry told him lying was not the best option. I can understand Samantha wanting to keep Oliver from William because of Oliver’s ways, I don’t know if she knows he’s the Green Arrow or not but that would be another reason, but what does it matter if he tells Felicity about William? I can respect not telling everyone, but she has people who know so why can’t Oliver? Obviously she didn’t do it for the money so why would she care if Felicity knows; based off of this one episode Felicity seems like a super person who as she herself said would love the child so why say no to her?
Samantha felt unfair to Oliver in the second timeline, again I don’t know the history between them but saying no one can know makes little sense when she admitted she didn’t care about the money so there was no obligation to his mother and again she has people who know so why can’t he have the one? I understand Oliver wants to see his son, but if he did love and respect Felicity then he shouldn’t have agreed to that condition; he could have said he would do anything she asked but not that or if he wanted to see William he could file for visitation, I’m sure they know a judge or two who would keep this matter private if Samantha is so worried about people knowing. Felicity has every right to say “How can I be with you if you don’t trust me” to Oliver. There’s also the option other fans have presented of Oliver could have still told Felicity and Samantha never would have known because Felicity would keep his secret so if he was going to lie to anyone why not have it be to Samantha who lied to him as well? I can certainly understand why some fans are crying foul over this handling.
I thought the two actors who Oliver and Felicity did great in the first timeline scene; it was great to watch and one of those character/chemistry moments that would tempt me to watch the series if I wasn’t already. I’m not an “Arrow” fan but I have to say that scene has me wanting to see the next episode for them; the clips of Huntress I’ve seen on YouTube also make me want to watch this show, but seeing as they’re so far into the series I’m not sure how many full episodes I’ll watch in the future. Still I really liked that scene performance wise; again I have no real context for the characters but can understand how some fans are mad about aspects of it, but it was a memorable scene to me in the crossover.
I still haven’t seen the promo with the grave everyone seems to be talking about, but I really hope it isn’t Felicity for various reasons. One, killing a love interest simply to provide drama and angst for their partner is arguably lazy plotting and I personally feel it would be much more fitting if Oliver had to face Felicity every day and see the pain he caused; you can hurt him using her without her dying. It would be one thing if Felicity was part of a mostly outside Oliver plot that caught up to her, but to kill her simply to make Oliver feel bad is not okay. I would be furious if I was a fan of hers and they killed her simply to hurt Oliver. If they don’t know what to do with her outside of the relationship then just send her out of town that way if she would work in a future story she can come back. Two, she seems like a fun character and important to their unit; outside of Kendra she was one of my favorite characters to watch in this episode. Three, or maybe one b, if Felicity did die then Oliver would arguable get off kind of easy because after some time he may forget her and how he messed up, but if he has to face her every day or have her return a lot as a recurring character then he has to face his mistake and remember it and might keep him from repeating it more than if she’s not around and he forgets.
I’ve seen fans calling the lie a regression of the Oliver character, I can’t speak to that obviously, but if they have Felicity around then maybe he’ll want to try and fix things and thus you’ll get character growth from this instead of a regression and “hero gone dark” plot which may not last as long as it should. Four, I thought she and Oliver mad a cute couple so if I was a fan of there’s I’d be disappointed for that reason as well. I know they have the Lazarus Pit on this show and they’ve used it before so if Felicity did die they could use it to bring her back, but I really hope she doesn’t die.
Their Vandal Savage was good. Now that Vandal Savage has appeared in the television universe do you think they’ll also have his daughter Scandal showing up on either show, or maybe “Supergirl” to spread characters around, so they can have confrontations with the Secret Six? I did love the mention of ninth metal.