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[sc:astop]Martin “The Flash” and Cammien Ray aren’t the only team up this week! Alongside the rise of the Ghost Initiative, we see many members of Team Arrow – and some from the outside – team up in this week’s episode for some unexpected combinations, fights, and wins. As the search for Dante continues, familiar past villains return to take on our heroes.
This season Arrow will be airing on Mondays at 8pm ET. Our podcast episodes will be posted the following Wednesday, so we can accept email/voice feedback through Tuesday afternoon – and maybe an early Tuesday evening submission might make it in if you’re quick. 🙂
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[sc:as]
Flash mentioned redeeming Black Siren so get ready for a long one…
(part 1 of 2)
#KeepBlackSirenEvil!
“It’s what we hope to see!” – Cammie’s dark side is coming out early. Ha.
Honestly Cammie I’m not holding out much hope for Dante; it would be great if he was this bad guy worth all the build up but the longer they drag it out and hype it up the more I worry he’s going to be another Dragon or just ok villain at best. We’re half a season in and you know they’re going to spend at least 3 more episodes probably building him up so that’s less than half a season, not counting any hunts for him in which the group “just missed him” so we don’t see him on screen, to do something with this plot on top of every other plot going on and I just don’t know if they payoff will be there. Maybe Dragon has just jaded me so much when it comes to quality villains on this show but I’m not holding my breath for Dante.
Awe Flash with the mush. 🙂 Love it!
“Maybe two boring plots make an interesting one?” – to quote your girl Flash I’m about 100% sure that’s not true. 🙂
I agree with Kate, Curtis right now does feel more Felicity 2.0 than anything; in regards to him with Emiko’s new group featuring Renee – if they put Black Siren on that team as the sonic powered one for them can we please have Emiko/Siren instead of Emiko/Renee? I just feel Siren has a lot of chemistry with the ladies. Also not another round of team versus team! I also agree you can have too many characters in play at once which leads to sadly no one getting quality screen time really.
Black Siren saying she wants to make her father proud just made me want to throw up! Seriously can we stop with the because Quentin stuff with Black Siren?! >:( Forcing your dead daughter’s personality onto a stranger because you’re still grieving is not ok; saying Laurel and Black Siren are basically interchangeable is not ok as they are individuals not copies of each other! I am SO tired of this disrespectful plot and really hope Siren is playing them all still! They have not gone through enough to make this redemption believable from anyone’s POV really to me and again “Arrow” needs quality bad guys/anti heroes more than they need another hero.
Nnnooo I will not give in; sorry Flash but this is my hill to die on with “Arrow” this season, I get they’re pushing redemption but I can’t get behind it no matter what they do currently because it just feels so manufactured to me…like a random new plot. Okay so the team reduced Black Siren from Diaz you could argue so in that regard she does kind of owe them but flip side let’s be real it was a joke Siren even got in that position in the first place, that move was more about trying to make Dragon seem scary versus being organic to Siren who would have killed him long before he honestly got a hand on her so I’m sorry but for me that’s tainted and thus doesn’t get a point. Okay so she’s being friendly with them, it could still be part of a con or hey you know there’s such a class as anti hero – you don’t have to go straight into hero with character who comes into town who fans like; anti heroes give you way more plots than heroes arguably so why not have one versus everyone being good, especially in this city where it’s just as easy to go dark in the name of a good end goal as it is doing the right thing the whole way to achieve the same objective. I just don’t see why she HAS to be a hero on the level of a Felicity or somehow who most see as good good guy, what is so wrong with the anti hero level for Siren?
I realize it may be unfair to Beth but much like her being saddled with Dragon this season and trying to make him work she is sadly saddled for me with the fact the writers did Laurel so wrong in S4 having her basically be a background actor that I don’t trust them to give Siren quality plots like other characters get long term; I very much just fear once she’s redeemed to a good guy status she’ll fade into the background essentially and just be there again like what happened with Laurel-1. I want to give Beth a chance to prove me wrong but before I ever buy it long term sadly she’s got good well to try and build up by showing me Siren will be a real character if she stays on and not a substitute for Laurel-1 or someone who pops in every week to show she’s still there but does nothing. Again I know it’s unfair to Beth but the way they did Laurel in S4 just sucked so bad so I need to get back to a neutral place with the writers before I can support any turn towards good and then again I can’t promise I’ll fully buy in because I don’t want to see a plot where Laurel-1 is essentially replaced with Laurel-2 as I feel that’s insulting to both characters to say they’re the same nor do I want to see Siren and Dinah be seen as interchangeable because they share the same power skill. While an episode or two of one being the screamer of the week while the other does a law plot might be interesting I don’t know if long term I’ll enjoy it. Black Siren is one of the most interesting characters, if not the most interesting of the last two seasons so to see her redeemed for really no reason would just be a shame to me. I personally just can’t see any good coming from a redemption for her any time soon; at best I can give you make her an anti hero but beyond that I just feel it’ll end up back like Laurel in season 4 and I don’t want to see that again.
I don’t know if I’m asking for too much with this plot but I just want Black Siren to be given the same respect as everyone else and right now it’s been very hit and miss for me because while she’s awesome some weeks the continual push to go good because of a guy she doesn’t know who forced his daughter’s life onto her because he was still grieving just doesn’t sit well with me. Quentin is not her dad, they have different life experiences I’m sure because clearly Laurel-2 did so why wouldn’t Quentin-2. And again the teases of replacing Laurel with Siren even if that’s not how they mean it…I just really don’t like it; Siren is NOT Laurel and that should be respected not dismissed to slowly change her into the former Black Canary. I know you two get tired of hearing this each week but I can’t change how I feel even if the show dismisses me completely to push the plot and we end up with a sub par Siren compared to the interesting one we could of had; they’ve already kind of shut down Dinah’s anti hero approaches if you noticed so again that’s another reason I worry and I get they don’t want to do a bad guy on the team even if it would be interesting but again explain to me why we can’t have anti heroes? Oliver was one for many seasons so why can’t the girls be one? If they want to continue a redemption plot keep working on him because he’s not fully there yet. Yeah okay we have Lyla as an anti hero but she’s a guest not a main character. I just can’t stop fighting against the redemption for Black Siren sorry!
I will agree Felicity goes a long way in helping people, but for me it’s going to take more than just her being okay with Siren for a redemption to feel honest if they go all good; this is another reason to keep her anti hero because Felicity believing in her while Dinah doesn’t would make the anti hero plot feel more honest (there’s more to ant heroism than how many people feel you are or aren’t good but in terms of the vibe feeling organic how many buy into does help). As Cammie said having Siren be good would feel like again trying to just start from jump back at season four in saying they’re sorry for killing Laurel off and for me again you can’t just do that because this isn’t Laurel-1 essentially from another time so it’s still her you know, this is a whole new person who just looks like her and the two characters should be treated as such. They can keep making jabs about how Siren is more or less than Laurel but NEVER say they’re the same because they aren’t – they have lived very different lives and by such are different people even if they share a name and DNA. This plot just really makes me nervous because I don’t want a repeat of S4 with Katie just fading into the back the more the season goes to the point you sometimes forget she’s even there because if that’s how this ends why even bring her back beyond last season to mess with the group? Keep her recurring with quality plots if you can’t fit her into the situations organically long term because I’d rather see Siren have Nyssa like moments where they’re short yes but always leave you wanting more because they’re quality than see her be in every episode almost but she essentially does nothing. The show also wants us to buy Diaz as this awesome bad Flash and that’s not happening with me either. 🙂
Look it is sad Black Siren’s dad died because of her in her eyes but I really hope that’s not the only reason she became evil/would turn good dealing with Quentin as she has willingly killed Vince and others with ease so she’s no hero yet and as Supergirl shows dead parents don’t equal bad guy so I want to see more on her before they make any changes. At best kept her an anti hero because again the show needs her as that more than they need her as another good guy! This plot makes me so nervous and anxious sweating over it’s quality!
I agree Cammie in regards to Dinah compared to Oliver.
(part 2 of 2)
I have to agree Flash I was very “Meh” to Curtis dying; I will admit I thought he brought it on himself by doing a secret mission to disarm the bombs in the bad guys’ heads it seemed the way they edited the episode but when he went down I was more surprised it was that simple if you will which in retrospect should have been a hint but had this been the real end of Curtis sadly I wouldn’t have been as upset as the characters would be because of how they’ve used him this season.
There’s a lot of things that got dropped with Curtis, I still remember him fighting with Palmer Tech over the chip for Felicity; I doubt they’ll ever come back to it but that was interesting to see if she was going to get to keep the chip or not and what would that mean because yes Curtis built it so it was his idea but he did it with PT resources and on their company time so it’s at least half theirs if not all of theirs because that’s kind of the way companies work right – they pay you for your time so your ideas become their product gain. I know the writers know that chip still exists because they did the Arrow cave episode where it went down on her but since then there’s been nothing with it. The lack of touching on the chip is another plot I’m disappointed went away so fast in S4. I enjoy Felicity walking so don’t get me wrong but if it went down again or got hacked and some villain of the week used to control her (it’s superhero stuff so let’s say by using that one jack they could control her whole body) I wouldn’t be mad because again they ended that refreshing and interesting plot way too soon in my mind.
That’s fair Cammie in regards to Renee’s screentime.
*pats bench* Welcome to the dark side regarding Dragon Flash. 🙂
I liked Emiko not giving into Oliver at the start just because they’re blood, just because you’re blood doesn’t mean you have a connection beyond it…looking at you Black Siren, Quentin on this Earth is not your dad; I do wish Emiko had kept that mentality for one more episode but if they just start talking then go to friends then close as siblings I’ll be okay it’s just instant sibling connections because blood that annoys me with surprise sibling plots.
They should payoff Stan somehow so why not.
I vote we just go by Siren because Laurel-2 is technically her name it’s true but it’s just so easy to shorten it to Laurel and then some may get confused who aren’t avid listeners which Laurel you mean and again can we not do anything that suggest they’re interchangeable please even if it’s unintentional? Also Siren is one letter shorter so for feedback typing limits it works better than Laurel-2. 🙂
SO AGREE Dazzler, the Laurels aren’t interchangeable!
I’d certainly rather have Grant Wilson as the bad guy of the season than Diaz!
I can see the Archer program being derived from something Felicity created.
“It starts to weaken the history of Black Canary if they bring too many on.” – YES!
Is it Green Butterfly? She and Geoff are kind of like the official subs of the podcasts. 🙂 Be safe Flash!